FSX German Airfields 2

[hotelfox 18]

Still 'in love' with German Airfields 1 and 2 (except from Sasa' s understanding of green colours ), I do flights in that area occasionally - usually low level VFR. During my last flight I discovered some sort of seam which is crossing river Elbe pretty close to its mouth.

Not knowing that this seam obviously is caused by German Airfields 2 at that time I posted all the details in the FSDeveloper forum.

I would appreciate if the developers of GA2 would take a look at the corresponding thread.

Do you think that you will be able to erase that seam?

Thank you very much in advance.

[Shaun Fletcher 572]

Hello HF,

Where you see this line is there a distinct height change, looking at your pictures it would appear so, so the water levels are at different height where these ground textures occur.

[horst18519 231]

HF, there's nothing we can do against it. FSX seems to think that the Nord-Ostsee-Kanal runs uphill, so there are several height changes by default. In Kiel that leads to an ugly height change by default. We decided to use a flatten and move that height change away from the airport, so it won't look as ugly and prominent. Can't say anything about the other one though.

[hotelfox 18]

Where you see this line is there a distinct height change, looking at your pictures it would appear so, so the water levels are at different height where these ground textures occur.

Hi Shaun!

Yes there are height changes:

-5.6295m

-4.7666m

-9.1407m

-5.8207m

These heights were measured by GHD from the FSD-community making use of 'TCalcX'. You can check the corresponding positions in his post

Many thanks - I have a lot of respect for the patience which emphasizes your activity in this forum!

HF, there's nothing we can do against it. FSX seems to think that the Nord-Ostsee-Kanal runs uphill, so there are several height changes by default. In Kiel that leads to an ugly height change by default. We decided to use a flatten and move that height change away from the airport, so it won't look as ugly and prominent. Can't say anything about the other one though.

Hi Thorsten!

I just considered how smart it would be if the water within FSX would be at sea level - except from the lakes. But probably that' s too obvious ...

You' re right, the default Kiel Kanal is a series of up- and downhill with numerous steps, similar to the one I discovered crossing river elbe.

Seam at Gruenthal (FSX default)

Assuming that the Kieler Foerde and river Elbe would be exactly at MSL, do you think it would be possible to erase this series of anomalies? And if yes - which tool would you recommend? - I still hope that one day ships will sail smoothly along Kiel Kanal and river Elbe without having to pass severe obstructions ...

Thanks for your support!

[horst18519 231]

Sorry, HF, didn't see your reply, there's quite a lot going on here at the moment.

As you say, the most obvious thing would be if Microsoft understood that ocean means 0f MSL. Unfortunately they don't...

The Kiel Kanal isn't of course exactly at 0f MSL, but it's closer to that height than the North Sea, the Elbe and the Baltic Sea, which all are affected by tide and winds. Of course that isn't simulated in fsx, so it should be possible to simply flatten them all to 0f MSL. Unfortunately the only way to do this would be to create a precize flatten in GoogleEarth using KML, following the exact shape of the real Channel. Of course the default Channel is at some places quite different than the real one, so one would also have to remove the default channel and create a new one.

So, with one word: it's possible, but would take several hours to do, and I just don't have the time for it at the moment.

There used to be an addon "German Rivers" for FS8 and FS9 if I'm not mistaken, was it R. Duda who created it? Maybe he still got the exact coordinates he used for the Kiel-Kanal and would be so nice to share them with anybody who wanted to fix this in FSX.

[hotelfox 18]

Sorry, HF, didn't see your reply, there's quite a lot going on here at the moment.

Hi Thorsten,

No problem - better a late answer than none!

Unfortunately the only way to do this would be to create a precize flatten in GoogleEarth using KML, following the exact shape of the real Channel. Of course the default Channel is at some places quite different than the real one, so one would also have to remove the default channel and create a new one.

So, with one word: it's possible, but would take several hours to do, and I just don't have the time for it at the moment.

Sounds like a big bunch of work. Probably I' ll do it one day but I would have to have to study a lot beforehand.

There used to be an addon "German Rivers" for FS8 and FS9 if I'm not mistaken, was it R. Duda who created it? Maybe he still got the exact coordinates he used for the Kiel-Kanal and would be so nice to share them with anybody who wanted to fix this in FSX.

I once read about that project - no idea where. Nevertheless I' ll get in touch with Rainer.

Thank you very much for your detailed answer! Top support!!

[GaryGB 0]

Hi Jan:

Good to see that Thorsten had an opportunity to reply here.

It may be helpful to bear in mind that the area of interest "German Airfields 2 - Nordlichter" is at the dividing line between Parts (1) and (2) of the "German Airfields (FSX only)" add-on scenery package series:

Linked from: http://www.aerosoft....gi?showd,,10590

FYI:

Apparent freeware versions of Ranier Duda' s data sets for FS2004 format river LWM water polys are here:

http://translate.goo...DN%26start%3D10

URL and page above was translated by Google from:

http://www.germany-v...Scape_River.htm

Earlier work by Ranier Duda for Northern and Eastern Germany rivers can be found here (may contain part of above freeware set):

http://files.fsnordi...cenery/Germany/

FSX SDK TMF Viewer examination of the above LWM vector data originally intended for use in FS2004 suggests the possibility that it may not align as precisely as FSX now makes possible; this may or may not be to your liking.

As a quick test, it probably could be loaded in FSX (most LWMs are still compatible with FSX) as an area layer in the top of your FSX scenery library just to see where the water polys end up above any existing active scenery for the area of interest.

But after seeing the previous meticulous attention to detail and hard work done by that scenery team with data they had accessible to them in the past, I would not be at all surprised if they already have water poly data more precisely aligned with real world postions in FSX format now.

Possibly they (Ranier in particular) might be receptive to providing either a prepared CVX vector flatten/water poly of the area(s) you are trying to fix with elevation set to sea level (0 feet / meters elevation = 0 MSL).

Alternatively, perhaps you could be provided with XYZ data points (Lon/Lat/Alt) you would need to create a water flatten yourself of the specific, limited area(s) of interest with some freely available tools that would require you have the Deluxe version of FSX (in order to have the SDK).

However, as developers primarily involved in payware production that scenery team also might not find it feasible to provide you with such data (they may have had to pay for licensed data usage), but it is worth asking.

I'm not sure if FSX-KML (which works only via GoogleEarth Pro that requires a $400 license?) will even allow that degree of zoomed-in precision (I am not sufficiently familiar with FSX-KML's current capabilities).

I can say that the freeware SBuilderX could be used to capture a geo-referenced background image from GoogleEarth (which has freely viewable, highly detailed imagery covering that area).

I'm assuming SBuilderX re-projects the captured GoogleEarth imagery from Mercator to WGS84 projection required by the FSX SDK.

BTW: This captured highly detailed background image would only be used as a "template" over which to trace real-world structures (the shorelines), and such imagery itself would of course not be re-distributed.

Using SBuilderX you would trace the detailed shorelines of the area(s) requiring a flatten, connecting them as needed with lines across the Elbe and/or other involved waterbodies to close the new precision polygon(s).

Assuming one has the desired polygon data created, one would then assign the proper "Hydro_Polygons" GUID attribute specified by the SDK to create a flattening water file with a locally compatible waterclass color, and compile a finished CVX vector BGL using SHP2VEC from the FSX SDK (not BGLComp from the FS2004 SDK). [EDIT]

Other procedures as mentioned above in earlier replies may still be needed, but the entire process (described rather simply here as an overview just to present basic concepts) could likely be done in SBuilderX.

In the mean time, until you're ready to explore the world of scenery building (caution... it's addictive! ), to eliminate the rocky artifacts seen where there are steep terrain mesh slopes underlying mesh-clinging water, I'd recommend:

1.) Re-name your current Terrain.cfg in the main [FSX install path] folder (Ex: to Terrain_CFG_[date].bak

2.) Download and install the highly innovative and compatible substitute "FSX Terrain.cfg FIX" at:

http://forums.simfli...p?f=230&t=57445

3.) Substitute that "fixed" Terrain.cfg as your new working copy in the main [FSX install path] folder

4.) Re-run any configurators for terrain addons (Ex: German Airports, UTX Europe, Vancouver+, Tongass Fjords X, etc.) to restore necessary entries to Terrain.Cfg.

Finally, you would load up FSX and inspect the scenery areas of interest; you should no longer see the rocky artifacts described above.

Note: Terrain mesh elevation anomalies underlying "mesh-clinging" water areas caused by mis-matched elevations in adjacent mesh tiles will not actually be "fixed" by this, and may still be seen as soft shadows at a proper angle to the sun, but surfaces will be water... not rock!

With a "fixed" Terrain.cfg, your AI ships should no longer crash over tile edges with mis-matched elevation showing the "same" type of FSX effect that the former rocky surface attribute would otherwise have caused; you may instead see a brief water spray effect.

Hope this helps!

GaryGB

[horst18519 231]

Gary, thanks for your explanations, I'm sure they're helpful for lots of readers.

Still, I have to add some points:

1. FSX KML does not need GE pro, it works perfectly well with normal GE and doesn't need to care about projection. So in this case I'd rather use it than the still fantastic tool SBuilder.

2. Changing the outlook of the Kiel-Kanal could be achieved by what you described, but I'd say this is the better method:

- draw the outlines in GoogleEarth

- create a flatten using the polygon

- create a "legacy_hydro..." polygon with the same shape

- create a big polygon covering all of the default channel and tag it "exclude_waterpolys"

That should be it.

[GaryGB 0]

Hi Thorsten:

Thanks very much for clarifying the current capabilities of FSX-KML and the capacity to work with recent enhanced freeware versions of GoogleEarth... that certainly can simplify matters for FS development!

I had not looked at the specifications for GoogleEarth's Projection and Datum in years, so I appreciate your bringing that to my attention; I am now very pleased to see it is immediately usable for most FS SDK compatible purposes... as it is already Lat/Lon WGS84:

http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html

Assuming GoogleEarth can zoom in on the imagery to the same degree that one can zoom in on a captured background image bitmap in SBuilderX (Ex: without losing the GoogleEarth image with a message that the imagery is not available at that level of detail), I can see how that would be a very convenient approach to use for production.

Personally, I have used GlobalMapper with the "download online data" function for a lot of my work in the USA where we have a great deal of freely available online data; that would perhaps not be the best approach to take in Europe where I understand GIS data is sometimes less accessible or affordable.

Another hindrance to the Global Mapper method would of course be the slow speed with which it updates on-screen multi-layered data sets with either Topo or aerial orthoimagery compared to GoogleEarth or other apps; apparently GlobalMapper's bitmap rendering engine is slower, and it seems to keep re-reading and/or downloading tiles for most panning movements in a given work area.

Certainly your recommendations provide a very efficient approach for Jan to take should he begin working with the terrain fix for this area of interest!

So IIUC, were Jan were to undertake this project, I presume he would be using the newly created (traced) data set for making the flatten poly (aka "polygon") in (1) separate BGL.

Next with a copy of that same original data set (so they are matched in size and position), he would assign the "legacy_hydro..." water class texture color attribute GUID for creation of another separate BGL using FSX SDK's SHP2VEC.

Both the above copies of the data set would have coordinates set in clockwise sequence, and a 3rd copy of that data set could also be made in a counter-clockwise sequence with the proper tool (is this function to reverse coordinate sequence available in FSX-KML?); this 3rd copy could be used to create a textured shoreline along the edges of the NEW water poly. [EDIT]

Then, I assume he would wish to closely limit the extent of his exclude polygon "covering all of the default channel", before he then tags his own poly with the "exclude_waterpolys" GUID for compilation with FSX SDK's SHP2VEC.

NOTE: According to what I've read from FSDeveloper threads, if with the poly line being created, one intercepts (or "crosses") the vector line from an adjacent poly (un-related to the poly of interest which is intended to be an "exclude" poly), the other "touched" poly(s) will be excluded also; IIUC, precision would be required when Jan's sets down his data point positions here!

I see from your post signature that you are likely intimately familiar with the content in both Parts (1) and (2) of the "German Airfields". [EDIT]

Because this area is at the border between Parts (1) and (2) of the "German Airfields (FSX only)" add-on scenery package series, I am concerned as to whether he may incur issues with excluding the proper default water bodies as the files for those 2 packages are separate BGLs.

I was wondering if such polygon vector BGLs as were used to create the Kiel-Kanal are likely to not overlap precisely in view of the mis-matched terrain elevation mesh tiles we are seeing as a basis of the original problem Jan reported here and elsewhere; I don't have those add-ons, so I cannot inspect them by loading both sets of vector BGLs in TMF Viewer.

IIUC, the width of the "rocky" spans Jan is seeing may correlate with the width of the slope span between the adjacent mis-matched terrain tiles.

Given that the vector methodology that FSX SDK now uses should theoretically work by "coordinates" and "priorities" regardless of the number of individual files overlapping a geographical area, based on your experience, Thorsten, is Jan likely to still be able to keep his exclude poly very close to the Kiel-Kanal that he wishes to exclude, without risk of failing to intercept the vectors for the Kiel-Kanal from files in both Parts (1) and (2) of the "German Airfields? [EDIT]

Thanks again for your helpful and supportive input for your appreciative end-users of the German Airfields 2 - Nordlichter from Aerosoft!

GaryGB

[hotelfox 18]

I' m impressed - what a bunch of information! Once again, thank you very much both of you!

All in all it sounds as if the installation of FSGlobalX would be the most elegant way around this issue

Considering the fact that I bought a flight simulator I sometimes feel irritated when I find myself carefully reading through instructions or tutorials instead ...

To keep the long story short - it would be a challenge for me trying to get the job done. As I am not familiar with some tools yet I truely would need some assistance at least to pass the first hurdles. Maybe somebody is willing to give me some kind of (Skype-)tutorial? Usually I am learning fast, so don' t hesitate! Any volunteers??

Apart from that - how does the Kiel Kanal look in FSGlobalX? Can anybody post some screenies here? Would be nice to see also for the community I think (I guess aerosoft wouldn' t mind if I' ll buy that box ).

[GaryGB 0]

All in all it sounds as if the installation of FSGlobalX would be the most elegant way around this issue smile.gif

Apart from that - how does the Kiel Kanal look in FSGlobalX? Can anybody post some screenies here? Would be nice to see also for the community I think (I guess aerosoft wouldn' t mind if I' ll buy that box rolleyes.gif ).

Hi Jan:

When I read that the canals changed elevations multiple times along their course in that area, and that the region was sometimes referred to as "lowlands", I began to get the idea that it was challenging to render in the 3d modeled FS world.

When I looked at the several FS scenery packages I have been able to access thus far to inspect the region, and saw that others had apparently opted to not render the water bodies in that particular area, I began to form an image in my mind's eye of the challenges that would be incurred to accurately reproduce it.

I confirmed my impressions today when I looked at the apparent same aerial imagery in Virtual Earth that I'd previously seen in GoogleEarth, and noticed the sweep of elevation values in that region ranging from below sea level inland... up to sea level at the River Elbe and North sea!

Most water in the region would be displayed above the level of the land, which usually looks awkward rendered in FS.

FYI: I looked at the FSGlobal2008 website, a product of "Pilot's" under the auspices I believe, of the site's proprietor Stefan Schaefer (who may be remembered as the developer of the magnificent Boeing 314 Clipper add-on aircraft package etc.).

In the details for his product, he makes it clear how Pilot's approached the implementation of the available SRTM terrain data, and how it has not been released at a horizontal resolution beyond 76 Meters for areas outside the USA.

Furthermore, he states that although they sought to exclude artifacts in water areas with waves, they did try to preserve "solid" object elevation data from landmarks adjacent to water such as dams etc..

http://fsim.net/fsglobalx//intro.htm and http://fsim.net/fsglobalx//englisch2.htm

It is possible that the approach FSGlobal2008's developers took in processing the SRTM data into an add-on terrain mesh for that area could assist in minimizing the challenges in rendering the area more accurately in FS, since it may be that individual water body elevations may be properly rendered along with rises in the land from lower elevations inland up to meet the edges of the water; perhaps also elevations of some dikes may be represented along with elevations for dams.

Based on my past dealings with Stefan Schaefer, I expect he'd do a diligent job with the mesh product just as he had also done in producing a quality product in the Boeing 314.

http://b314clipper.com/

Additionally, he was once even kind enough to assist a customer's needs by shipping a product with personal and expedited handling to meet a buyer's special time deadline. It is likely he would be willing to communicate with you if you contact him; here's the WHOIS info for his fsim.net website(s):

Registrant:

PILOT'S GESMBH

Franziskanerplatz 1/10

WIEN, WIEN A-1010

Austria

Registered through: Blue Razor Domains, Inc.

Domain Name: FSIM.NET

Created on: 22-Nov-99

Expires on: 22-Nov-09

Last Updated on: 26-Aug-08

Administrative Contact:

Schaefer, Stefan stefan.schaefer@gmx.at

PILOT'S GESMBH

Franziskanerplatz 1/10

WIEN, WIEN A-1010

Austria

6763745687 Fax --

Technical Contact:

Schaefer, Stefan stefan.schaefer@gmx.at

PILOT'S GESMBH

Franziskanerplatz 1/10

WIEN, WIEN A-1010

Austria

6763745687 Fax --

Re-doing that area "properly" with SDK methods in FS would no doubt involve considerable work, so I respectfully understand why other developers might have deferred undertaking that project, as it would be time consuming to render the region with the accuracy they might feel it deserves (and that their personal standards require of them for a product when rendering a scenery for FS).

I submit to you, that use of the new "Terrain.cfg fix" I described above in combination with the FSGlobal2008 product might be a practical and time efficient solution for resolving the terrain (land and water) anomalies seen in the area of interest to you in this ongoing discussion.

If you do not use the "Terrain.cfg fix", you will continue to see rocky artifacts all over the FSX world where abrupt changes in elevation slope occur... even using a quality 3rd party terrain mesh product; in fact you may see even more such rocky artifacts in FSX due to its slope texture display engine, as the add-on mesh may more accurately reproduce such slopes that exist in the real world!

Note: If you later wanted to "get your feet wet" and more extensively inspect the water areas that you want to fix with the appropriate FS "cross-hairs aircraft" which sits directly down at ground level, you could better determine the extent of an area you might wish to fix.

If you merely need to create a simple water flatten that meets the shorelines reasonably well to allow elimination of most objectionable visual anomalies as might be seen flying by at usual aircraft altitudes (as perhaps was first helpfully suggested by GHD aka George Davison in the original FSDeveloper thread), that might allow your AI ships to travel their courses without the distractions that originally brought this matter to your attention.

It may be that you would only need to fix a relatively small area with the proposed water flatten to allow normal AI ship activity and elimination of grossly visible terrain anomalies while flying overhead; you could then leave the rest of the area for another ambitious developer to fine-tune in the future.

You would need to have the FSX SDK and a basic working knowledge of some FS development techniques, but if a simple water flatten were all that is needed for your particular of interest, based on your own on-water measurements of the area to be fixed, you could see just how much of the waterway(s) might actually need to be fixed.

If the extent of the area was small, it might not be that big of a task to click some data points into a log file using a freeware tool, then process the data into the needed BGL(s) for use in FSX.

Hope this helps clarify things a little better!

GaryGB

[hotelfox 18]

Hope this helps clarify things a little better!

GaryGB

For sure it does, Gary! I really appreciate the way you share your profound know-how with us. Summarizing the provided information I tend to follow my previously mentioned idea and purchase FSGlobalX. I mean, tweaking can be very nice, but when it comes to the point that my aircraft stay on the ground and the Flight Simulator transforms into a Tweaking Simulator, for me that means I' ve definitely reached the point of return.

At the moment I think I' ll install both, FSGlobalX and the Terrain.cfg fix (already downloaded it). But I' ll also follow your idea trying to get in touch with Stefan.

I' ll keep you posted! Many thanks again!

[GaryGB 0]

Hi Jan:

I just got some test results from a system running Ultimate Terrain Europe for FSX (UTX Europe).

There were no rocky water anomalies seen during inspection, and the vector data for the water bodies throughout the area of interest are at 0 MSL as they should be; additionally, they appear to have proper shape and positioning (as seen in other products from the Ultimate Terrain series).

http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=utxeurope

Also, if your primary flight area is Germany rather than a mix of areas around the world, a high detail terrain mesh is now available from FS Dreamscapes in "5 meter" horizontal resolution spacing

"Unlike other mesh products, the NEXTMap ProMesh series is based on highly accurate and reliable elevation data, as opposed to the NASA 90m SRTM data, most of which has holes and voids. FS Dreamscapes were the first designers to implement fractional elevation data settings, modeling all elevation changes to 1/25^th of a meter vertically."

http://www.fsdreamscapes.com/store/product...?products_id=29

Hope these leads for FSX add-ons help you enjoy your flying even better!

GaryGB

[hotelfox 18]

Hi Jan:

I just got some test results from a system running Ultimate Terrain Europe for FSX (UTX Europe).

There were no rocky water anomalies seen during inspection, and the vector data for the water bodies throughout the area of interest are at 0 MSL as they should be; additionally, they appear to have proper shape and positioning (as seen in other products from the Ultimate Terrain series).

Hi Ray!

Thanks again! That is good news! Great that you had the idea to check that! And UTX is on my list as well. As far as I can judge it is a must.

But as the aerosoft forum is hosting this thread I' d like to print the more adequate link for UTX Europe here.

Also, if your primary flight area is Germany rather than a mix of areas around the world, a high detail terrain mesh is now available from FS Dreamscapes in "5 meter" horizontal resolution spacing

Not really - I like to fly the world. Destinations where I' ve been to already and other ones where I expect beautiful landscapes. I think that I' ll be happy with Stefan' s FSGlobalX in connection with UTX (Stefan answered my questions already - very nice guy, you' re right). Your post today and Stefan' s answer make me hope that the observed rocky textures will be eliminated with the installation of the two add-ons. Nevertheless - nice to know FSDreamscapes and for sure worth to keep an eye on it.

Hope these leads for FSX add-ons help you enjoy your flying even better!

GaryGB

I am sure that your input wasn' t helpful only for me! It is indeed very kind of you to invest such a lot of time to the benefit of this community.

Thank you, Gary!