Poll: For Future Developements In U.e.p.'s Mlu Mfd's

[JamesChams 108]

UPDATED: 7/13/09

Gents/Ladies,

The latest BETA of the AN/APG-68 Radar has undergone some testing and it was found to have a major issue; it wasn't maintaining its lock on the target if and when the F-16 pilot banked or pitched the aircraft off of the axis of flight; Fred is currently working on updates to fix this. Fred has also completed all the additions and fixes to the HUD and it now has more features and function much more like the real F-16's HUD.

EHSI has been subject to some tweeks and is undergoning a complete face-lift to look and function like the EHSI's pictured below. There are many internal functional changes that are also being done (too many to mention here). It will be some time before any pictures can be posted of this. But, I will have a small surprise for you all shortly.

Standby!

PS: I've also been testing the new HDR: FLIR Visor and it looks like a "marriage made in heaven" with this F-16.

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UPDATED: 6/11/09

Gents/Ladies,

Fred got some source materials for a HSI used in F-16's (made by Lockheed-Martin here in the U.S.); I have been using it and researching for more info. - I should be getting more spec.'s from the manufacturer's shortly. These implementations are schedualed to be included to v0.27 along with the Block 50/52 version (i.e. a total of 3 different EHSIs <img src="http://www.forum.aerosoft.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" " border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" /> ). I wanted to know, for all those who voted for the 1000 Series EHSI, would you like to see it in the authentic F-16 version? Here are a few pics which include all the features already mentioned (e.g. Color CDI, WX, etc.) plus TCAS. And, as always, vote to let us know.

Authentic F-16 EHSI with Color CDI needles, MAP/Wx, & TCAS.

FYI: We have currently been working on BETA v.0.26 which revealed several bugs, namely in the AN/APG-68. But, also many fixes and additions to the Aerosoft Default HUD were completed (e.g. Hud Bounce and Misplaced ROLL indicators are now fixed). There is much more to come so please be patient and standby for bi-weekly updates.

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UPDATED: 4/25/09

Gents/Ladies,

I've received a number of requests and suggests regarding the AN/APG-68's MFD updates. Everyone has an opinion and there are a variety of E.lectronic H.orizantal S.ituation I.ndicators (EHSI) in use by different manufacturors today. To better understand the various needs/wants of users, I would like to get a an opinion poll to ensure that, with future varients, these needs will be met. Please keep in mind that this is a Work-in-Progress (WIP) and things will be updated to be more realistic and per your posted suggestions.

Here are a few samples and I welcome others:

Cyan EHSI: (Bottom Center MFD) Green EHSI: (Right MFD)

Current BETA v0.25 EHSI: from the U.ser E.nhanced P.ackage (U.E.P.).

It includes many features for NAVIGATION including Wx (Wind V/Alt./Baro.), Temperature, Time (ETA), VOR/TCN/GPS.

(GPS Menus are currently being considered for development).

Below are Pics of the HSD, FCR, EHSI, and HOTAS Axis SDK Test Page(s). Thank you.

[MenendezDiego 1]

Dear Aerosoft Staff

My vote goes to leaving it as is. In addition, if the outcome is different, that it be an option for future updates, and not included solely.

Regards, Diego

[JamesChams 108]

... that it be an option for future updates, and not included solely.

I completely agree; it was always intended to be an optional update. No one is forcing anyone to have it.

But, if you want an Authentic AN/APG-68 with all the functionality of the HOTAS on your HOTAS Cougar/Saitek x58 etc., a few authentic F-16 HUD additions, and navigational ability for I.M.C. weather in IFR Flight then you've now got the option.

Thank you for your input.

PS: The gauges also have BETA testor and developer features (a kind of SDK) for the Aerosoft staff to work with.

Here are a couple of pics to show you how this is done in the gauges themselves.

and for users of HOTAS type joysticks that can even configure/calibrate their HOTAS joystick to match events that previously could ONLY be done by mouse clicks.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Dear Aerosoft Staff

My vote goes to leaving it as is. In addition, if the outcome is different, that it be an option for future updates, and not included solely.

Regards, Diego

We are not involved in this, lol. At this moment we got no plans for the F-16.

[JamesChams 108]

We are not involved in this, lol. At this moment we got no plans for the F-16.

Thank you for clarifying that for all users.

I though that the name U.ser E.nhanced P.ackage (U.E.P.) would be a clear indication of that.

This project is one of many F-16 user-based feature improvements to the overall Aerosoft package. It allows for many authentic (realistic to the actual F-16) capabilities in FSX; such as HOTAS - Hands on Stick and Throttle with your own joystick/throttle(s) and many more. Fred "Horten229" H. began and has continued many of these improvements for personal reasons (begining with AN/APG-68 authenticity improvements) and I (James C.) joint with him to add more navigational/functional improvements to the project. We've had another two forum users willing to contribute to this package in other areas and we hope that we can bring it to a point of satisfaction to both Aerosoft's F-16 customers, staff/developers, and ourselves.

Thank you for your comments and I hope that any questions about this are now clarified.

[iRay 1]

Thank you for clarifying that for all users.

I though that the name U.ser E.nhanced P.ackage (U.E.P.) would be a clear indication of that.

This project is one of many F-16 user-based feature improvements to the overall Aerosoft package. It allows for many authentic (realistic to the actual F-16) capabilities in FSX; such as HOTAS - Hands on Stick and Throttle with your own joystick/throttle(s) and many more. Fred "Horten229" H. began and has continued many of these improvements for personal reasons (begining with AN/APG-68 authenticity improvements) and I (James C.) joint with him to add more navigational/functional improvements to the project. We've had another two forum users willing to contribute to this package in other areas and we hope that we can bring it to a point of satisfaction to both Aerosoft's F-16 customers, staff/developers, and ourselves.

Thank you for your comments and I hope that any questions about this are now clarified.

Hi There James,

If, and i say if you want to make it an enhanced package....lets make it as real as possible....like i told you i have some original info for that....

Annyway you can put the EHSI inside the MFD, though when there is going to come a 2 seater or an update maybe they are willing to put my EHSI in it...( on the place where the HSI is...)

But for sofar some info:

[JamesChams 108]

Hi There James,

If, and i say if you want to make it an enhanced package....lets make it as real as possible....like i told you i have some original info for that....

Annyway you can put the EHSI inside the MFD, though when there is going to come a 2 seater or an update maybe they are willing to put my EHSI in it...( on the place where the HSI is...)

But for sofar some info:

Mr. Tafkam,

Thank you; the HSD already uses all the actual implementations in your first picture (on the LEFT) with some limitations in symbology for features that are NOT in use in FSX. The HSI in your pic (on the RIGHT) is an analog HSI, similar to the one already in the F-16's center console. The only exception is that the one in your picture has I.nner, O.utter, M.iddle marker beacon indicators; which the NEW EHSI has as well. See pic.'s in the above post.

I do welcome more suggestions, what would you like to see in the "look" of the CDI needles; thinner Green lines???

I ask because I will try and do a variety of versions to make them authentic to the look of the gauges.

Thank you for your suggestions; please, keep them coming.

[iRay 1]

Mister Chambs,

The EHSI that i made is a replica of the real thing and its deffinately not an analog only...because it also has specific data some like markers but not the way you think about it, wich ofcourse isnt capable to set in with fsx....

By the way your EHSI is civilian and not militairy, not that its important, but with these answers or replies that you made in all the other topics i can see that you just know dooda about the viper......and this EHSI SHOULD be in the center console....the other marker that would be visual is the Marker light above the fuel-QTY or with the marker-sounds..over the radio..

And sure i know a lot of things are not capable or possible in FSX...BECAUSE ITS FSX...

Mister Chambs, i already had a strange feeling about you, but this all makes it clear...

Just do your thing i dont care, but please get off that friggin' high horse...

[JamesChams 108]

Gents/Ladies,

For those who would like to make other suggestions to the gauges; please feel free to post your gauge suggests comments here; Thank you.

[JamesChams 108]

Post v1.20 - ICP "bug" report HERE: http://www.forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?showtopic=24870

[f16viper 0]

Hey James

could you post link

looks really cool

thx

[Tailhook_19 0]

James,

I've spent over 30 years in the USAF doing maintance on the F16. I retired 3 years ago and the AS F-16 is the only fsx model that I've ever seen look close to the real one. only disappointment were the gauges which were rather childish atari looking things. Take my advise. [Edited by Forum Admin]

regards,

Col. Tom E. (USAF ret.)

[JamesChams 108]

Mr. f16viper,

We hope to release a BETA version for people to try out soon and, report back to us. It will most likely not look "visually" like what everyone would expect; but, bear in mind it is a WIP. With that release we hope to get user inputs on all areas of this project. If you have any suggestions please let me know. However, there are several changes that we still need to implement and test before it is ready for release.

----------------------------

Col. Tom E.,

Thank you for the good advise. I welcome any of your inputs to this project.

[iRay 1]

Ok James,

First of all appologies about your Name...

If you are really listening, and talk about a homebuilt pit...

First of all its a pit from a friend of mine...wich is one of the most realistic pits ever build, Never the less it seems you think that the HSI is an analog projected on a glass display..

Now if you really have been listening, than you would know that in the centerconsole they use an EHSI these days, wich indeed is a glass panel..

The thing is that in my opinion you are making in some way more like an civilian EHSI, thats the thing i said...

And im not saing i don't like your projekt, but in time of beta testing all before Scott was coming out with his gauges, we already had a different gauges for the MFD's, the only thing was the radar wich didnt work at the time....but the right MFD was great...

(look at screenshot)

And if you want to make an EHSI make sure you have the right colours,,,symbolism etcetera

I'd also like to see the markerlight above the Fuel-QTY beeing lid and hear a marker signal over the radio......but that is something Aerosoft have to do...

I would be glad to be some of help, like i said i can offer you some realistic info...

And sir Col.Tom.E....

I understand your reply totally, with all the respect sir, but if i may be frankly, if you would have read more on this Forum you would see the background sir...

And i agree about the Atari look, still i think it can be made better, and more realistic with the right symbolism and the right gauges sir.

and i have spend not that much of years at the Dutch airforce but enough to know about the avionics and more....

Back to James....

The first picture is not a homebuild pit as you can see....now i know you're about to say thats an MLu pit, Correct...but these days as i heard is that they are using the EHSI also in the Blk50/52...or going to..

Never the less its not in the model ...so be it, its just an example of the EHSI...so the homebuilt pit is not just an analog HSI on a glass panel...

The middle picture is a picture of a 2d panel wich used in FS9er, as you can see the MFD's are totally different....the radar works by the way but hasn't being set...

The right picture is a screenshot intime of betatesting.....

So now i still like to offer my help, if needed..

And last...the high horse was meant because of a lot of your replies, , wich gave me the feeling you were looking down at a person.... or talking to a kid wich unfortunately im not annymore...

Just still have funny feelings about you James.........

[Shaun Fletcher 570]

Gentlemen,

I have deleted many posts on this thread, if it cant be kept on topic it will be locked.

I think you all know why this has been done.

Tom I'm one of the forum administrators.

Gents, I've read the posts and now deleted them.

If you wish to carry this on then please dont do it on the Aerosoft Forums.

I'm going to say no more on the matter... Unless.

[Tailhook_19 0]

James

could you do a block 50/52 ehsi and the MLU color version in the same gauge allowing only for the menu systems to toggle the colors between one or the other just like the real aircraft has?

regards,

Col. Tom E. (USAF Ret.)

[JamesChams 108]

Mr. TAFKAM / Mr. Tom E.,

Fred and I just had a discussion on implementing your suggestions. I could use NON-CLASSIFIED information on the pictorial representations and inner workings/functional capabilities of that gauge. Keep in mind that we DON'T want any CLASSIFIED documentation. All our document sources are publically available and are NOT CLASSIFIED.

Thank you for your suggestions.

[iRay 1]

James

could you do a block 50/52 ehsi and the MLU color version in the same gauge allowing only for the menu systems to toggle the colors between one or the other just like the real aircraft has?

regards,

Col. Tom E. (USAF Ret.)

I'll go with the Colonel!....

And is it also possible to swith the center in the the RMFD as in the real MFD's?

The RMFD (or left when swapped) has many options ofcourse, but however the center-line can be changed into DEP or CEN...maybe also an option for the MFD

[iRay 1]

Mr. TAFKAM / Mr. Tom E.,

Fred and I just had a discussion on implement your suggestions. I could use NON-CLASSIFIED information on the pictorial representations and inner workings/functional capabilities of that gauge. Keep in mind that we DON'T want any CLASSIFIED documentation. All our document sources are publically available and are NOT CLASSIFIED.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Don't worrie ..i wont give any classified information!!

But mail me your personal e-mail and i will send you the data that you are alowed to see...

grts

[M2769 2]

I agree with TAFKAM - my vote goes to the most realistic option. I think a copy of the MLU displays is the way to go, but the Colonel's toggle idea sounds great too.

On a slightly different topic, is there any chance of increasing the performance with an update like this? I notice that I drop some frames when I flip the MFD switch. They are great to have, but when flying around with several other F-16s it can be a little hard on the framerate.

[Horten229 0]

I'll go with the Colonel!....

And is it also possible to swith the center in the the RMFD as in the real MFD's?

The RMFD (or left when swapped) has many options ofcourse, but however the center-line can be changed into DEP or CEN...maybe also an option for the MFD

Actually, if I understand what you are asking for, we are already doing it (but its hard to tell from the pictures).

It supports both the CENtered and DEPressed modes for the HSD along with teh CouPLed and DeCouPled modes. It also supports the CNTL submenu in a semi real way mixing real options (FCR, PRE, NAV1, RINGS) with FSX specific options (ILS, INTR, APRT, TRRN, ACFT, LBL).

And I think this was mentioned, everything works on both displays.

Is that what you were looking for?

[Horten229 0]

I agree with TAFKAM - my vote goes to the most realistic option. I think a copy of the MLU displays is the way to go, but the Colonel's toggle idea sounds great too.

On a slightly different topic, is there any chance of increasing the performance with an update like this? I notice that I drop some frames when I flip the MFD switch. They are great to have, but when flying around with several other F-16s it can be a little hard on the framerate.

On performance, we have tried, but it isn't a big difference. The AN/APG-68 implemetation is faster than the original implementation but that is probably because the underlying implementation is completely different. And the difference is not really signficant, especially if you take it in the context of the HUD, the MFDs and the out-the-window imaging.

Performance with the MFDs is a very complex question. If you turn off terrain on the default HSD, it makes a big difference (which we made the default because of performance and its more realistic). Similarly, if you turn on PREplanned (which is just predefined airspaces) it slows things down. So it depends a lot on settings.

The real way to improve performance is to write it all in C++. While that is possible, it's a lot of work and we aren't going there at this point.

[iRay 1]

Actually, if I understand what you are asking for, we are already doing it (but its hard to tell from the pictures).

It supports both the CENtered and DEPressed modes for the HSD along with teh CouPLed and DeCouPled modes. It also supports the CNTL submenu in a semi real way mixing real options (FCR, PRE, NAV1, RINGS) with FSX specific options (ILS, INTR, APRT, TRRN, ACFT, LBL).

And I think this was mentioned, everything works on both displays.

Is that what you were looking for?

Looks very good!

Still one question..and i know its possible...and maybe handy too!

In our old MFD gauge for FS9er we had the winddirection and gusting on the top of the bullseye (as you can see in the screenshot)

Maybe just something to add....

And im not sure if possible, but perhaps to make the background slightly a little bit blueisch or very dark blue...so its kinda lid?

But i have to say good job, very good job even....

[Dagger022 0]

Whats you guys are doing looks great!

More realistic, in my opinion, is always a good thing!

V/R

Dagger022

[JamesChams 108]

Gents,

...In our old MFD gauge for FS9er we had the winddirection and gusting on the top of the bullseye (as you can see in the screenshot)

Maybe just something to add....

I've already implemented many weather features into the current EHSI; Fred will be adapting them into the AN/APG-68 (SimConnect implementations) for both gauges as it can be verified that it is indeed a feature of actual FCR page. So, you should see that implemented in the FCR page or, if not, it will be in the EHSI at least (we might do both too).

Whats you guys are doing looks great!

V/R More realistic, in my opinion, is always a good thing!

We hope to try to do that but many different people have their own opinions about what is authentic. And, between all the variations of european, midddle-eastern, West-Asian, and American versions out there, it is might only be possible to satisfy only a few expectations; but we will try.

Next, RE: FPS issues, etc.

Fred has already made mention of the limitations of code optimization with respect to .xml vs. C++ implementations. However, we will try to further enhance the way in which parts of code are used and displayed in the gauges. This will reduce some of the calculation load(s) on differing systems. It will NOT yeild great improvements. But, it will hopefully provide some relief. Furthermore, I want to state that this will be a "FAT package" and will have many features; so, if your current computer is struggling with Aerosoft's default, then THIS MIGHT NOT BE A PACKAGE for you. It will, however, be optimized based on user inputs to BETAs and a LOW-END-System version may also be part of the package giving all users another option. However, all the BETA versions might be a little more demanding at first till further improvements are made.

RE: Emailing me any F-16 documents:

Please just post your F-16 source information on the forums. Since we requested that the information NOT be classified; the sources must easily be verified for both Aerosoft and our necessities. Should it (F-16 resource information materials) be materials you acquired on your own with permission, then please post it to any freeware download service or photo bucket with any documentation showing your sources/copyrights etc. Also, we already have access to the same AN/APG-68 (.PDF) materials shown in some pic.'s on this forums. But, photos of Block 50/52 EHSI feature pages are need to accurately represent it in the U.E.P.; if anyone has them and would like to share it, please post them here or a link to them. Thank you.

Thank you for your suggestions/inputs.